Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. Any idea how to date it? 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. There's no indication of gauge. Baker, David J. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. I have pictures If you need them. Christophe Henri Bauduin Charles Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Charlier Ch. Any info will help. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to [email protected]). Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Belgium - Shotguns Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Home | Login | Register. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Proof Marks or % Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. thank you. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to [email protected]. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Can you send me some, Ed? "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. Clment Walter Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . . Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). Rifles & Musket Information. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. Baltus - Wilmotte Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide | Shotgun Forum On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Clment-Neumann Do you have any information on them? You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Broqua & Scholberg These Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Antique Pistols and Handguns for Sale | Collectors Firearms Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Hi Gerard and everyone! The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Information, NRA There are a number of Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. HI, John. The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. IMPORTANT NOTE! The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. GWO, good condition. Hard to identify or value firearms - NRA Museums: Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide Closset Louis My uncle has this neat old revolver that he doesn't know much about to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. Home | Login | Register. Dallas, Donald. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. significance or purpose. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. The Modern Shotgun. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. I'll test it very cautiously. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Brancquaert Louis I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) - Military Factory Four barrel . If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Wish I could be more helpful! Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable 1840-1860. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Comblain Hubert Joseph PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? Behr Jean jacques Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Boden Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. have a great day! Marlin-Savage-Winchester Cachoir Shotguns - Belgium Double for sale - Guns International Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. British gunmakers of the 21st century - The Field 1860-1870. 3 vols. Bernard Alphonse The "D.D. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Quite old. Beuret Frres The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Some older foreign Very helpfull once again. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Email: [email protected]. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Coleye M. N. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". The book Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. %PDF-1.3 Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. location, rather than a manufacturer. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. determination. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many JavaScript is disabled. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Bernimolin Antique Gun List Antique Guns and Firearms including Antique Hand production. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. A "Greener" double? It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Bury Jules. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons.
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